Curse

Red Locust · Aug 22, 2005, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

I dont care how much money you make, I dont care if you join my group, (nice backhanded insult there by the way, but you're assuming we'd have you.) I dont care if the game is hard FOR YOU, or easy FOR YOU. See, the world does not revolve around YOU, and I certainly never said it revolved around ME. I dont remember ever saying that the monkroaches inconvienced me personally at all. As I've told many of the others, its not about you or me. I dont care how miserable someone else is, unless my in game actions are making them miserable, I certainly have never been Miserable, lol, over this game. Fed up with bad players, sure we all have, but never miserable. Your example of "kicking my ass with protbond" is nearly laughable, especially 1v1, I guess you didnt read the example of what happened when I tested the protbond build against a healer monk in a 1v1 fight. Short story is that because there was no disenchant 4 players of equal lvl beat on me untill 3 of them realized they could never in a million years kill me, and it was a stalemate between me and the healer because B's Aura and a max smiting staff/rod is not enough to take out a dedicated healer.

So really, what you need to do is take your examples and burn them. Because they included you and me in them. You and me are not the point, the point is that the skill is overpowered to the point of being broken, and is currently being exploited. That, I am opposed to. If you want to farm or solo feel free, you can play the game however you want, and you can continue to do so when they repair this broken skill so that it can no longer be exploited.

Don't be so thick-headed. Those examples don't refer to me and you specifically, they refer to people using the monk farmer and people not using it.

As for the skill being overpowered in PvE, you have yet to prove it. Prot bond is largely used in solo work. As such, it has no effect on PvE team mechanics. So calling such a skill broken in PvE is pointless because if you do not solo, you will not (or rarely) come across this skill. If it was indeed broken, you'd be seeing every team running multiple copies of it, like they currently do with healing seed. Currently, you don't see that, you only see it as a tool for soloing.

And who the hell cares if a skill is overpowered in solo play? This game was balanced around teamplay, and as such, you're gonna see certain combos being very strong in solo play. That's like saying cheats should be banned in single-player games since they make the game too easy and broken

Yuan · Aug 22, 2005, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leddy

You know what, i sort of agree with you, in a sarcastic sort of way. The cap in price they will reach is 99000 gold, which (i believe) is THE SOFTWARE cap for items from traders.

The theories that govern economics in the real world don't apply to Guild Wars, the real world doesn't have traders that people continually buy off but a strictly limited amount of people sell to. This of course did change somewhat with the last market "revamp", but the effects of inflation due to the traders are still visible.

Take black dye for example. It was around 37plat the day before they redid the economy. It was 6.5k gold when they redid it; now it is 9k. It will eventually rise again, unless ANet imposed a software cap (below 99k). It is however, rising slower because now it gives you around 3/4 of the selling price (or at least i think so).

So tell me, why does a purely COSMETIC item which has supply FAR OUTSTRIP DEMAND (ie. the trader never runs out), keep on RISING IN PRICE?

Proof that the supply and demand theory doesn't work on Guild Wars.

/end

Good point. But, first, how many players actually buy from dye trader? Id say it is just a few since you can buy any dye from players cheaper than dye trader.
If people dont buy from dye trader, that cannot be accounted for in the law of supply and demand.

Just to give you an idea of how many factors play a role into this dye thing, think about competition and a kind of conspiracy. Dye traders always maintain the same price BETWEEN them, like a conspiracy of sellers, meaning there is no competition between them. No competition no fall in prices. Supply includes competition between suppliers and differences in prices between some sellers.

Second, if you plot a graph with the numbers you posted for the price and use means, you will see the price has gone down.

Third, yes...i know gw economy doesnt work like real life economy, which i stated before in my previous post. I also said that the law of supply and demand helps the goods to reach a price, i didnt say that ONLY the law of supply and demand determines that price.

There are many factor accounting for the prices. You cannot possibly know all of them. First, can you actually say that the law of supply and demand didnt had nothing to do with the prices u posted? Just a theory, but at first, very few people had black dyes. So, the price was huge. Then people started getting more black dyes due to playing more or having more players in the game, so the price went down. Then, maybe by coincidence or because it was nerfed, black dyes were dropping less so price went up again. This is just one theory. There can be many theories behind the price fluctuations. So, in my opinion, the law of supply and demand applies to the game at certain times, but it is not totally responsible for the prices as i stated before. Simple proof: ectoplasms.

Leddy · Aug 22, 2005, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Well, before they restructured the economy, i'd have to say that no one bought dye from the trader, but now that they have, i believe that people do buy their dye from the trader, as the prices between players and traders isn't actually that much now.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 22, 2005, 10:12 AM // 10:12

The real problem of the GW economy isn't inflation. It's doubtful if there is any inflation at all in the game.
What is happening right now is that prices simultaneously is rising (for a very few highly sought after commodities) and dropping for a very large number of commodities (e.g. a non-maxdamage weapon or shield is unsellable; a maxdamage weapon or shield which is not gold is unsellable unless you sell it ridiculously cheap; a gold maxdamage weapon costs a couple of K and is affordable to pretty much everyone above lvl 12; but gold maxdamage PERFECT weapons OF CERTAIN TYPES are ridiculously expensive and skyrocketing in price).

Which means that GW is suffering from mudflation. Which in turn is due to there being no item sinks.

I suspect the upgrades and the fact that you have to salvage items to get the upgrades back were supposed to act as item sinks, but since you quickly, easily and cheaply can get maxdamage weapons and the upgrades of your choice + almost all runes, that doesn't hold.

My guess is that the economy was designed to work when PvP was seen as the goal of the game, and the PvE was a tutorial. Basically players were supposed to pass through once and never look back. Now that most players spend most of their time in PvE, the economy is showing weakness.

I'd not say the economy is crashed, though. People complaining over things like the price of FoW armor are just being silly - status items are SUPPOSED to be expensive, or they'd not be status items. It's like complaining about the price of Ferraris.

ManaCraft · Aug 22, 2005, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quintus

Why? Why do you care that I get sufficient challenge when I play? How does it affect you? If I want to remove all of the challenge from the game for myself (and nobody else), why shouldn't I be allowed to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

OK...so then what exactly do you two care about? And why do you care whether I'm challenged enough or not? How in the hell does my soloing in any way affect your PvE experience?

Viewing the world through a microscope is certainly your prerogative. If you believe you are the only players that abuse protective bond, or that people only use it for soloing, that's fine. But you are mistaken.

The main idea behind the concept of game balance is that each player is supposed to be able to contribute to a party. Ideally, one should always be able to contribute on equal terms, and experience a certain amount of difficulty against tough foes. As players tend to min/max their characters to make them more powerful, existing options need to be balanced so that such players do not rise too far above the expected power level of others. Simultaneously, an effort should be made to bring as many options as possible close to each other in power level, so that people don't fall behind the power level of others, regardless of whether they make different choices with respects to their skills/items/whatever.

Another benefit to this is that strategic thinking becomes a requirement. Because all options are (ideally) close to each other in power level, you are required to consider multiple choices when building your setup. It is not simply a question of grabbing the most overpowered skill. This spawns diversity and variety among player setups, because so many different combinations are possible without falling behind the players who chose differently.

Or at least that's the way it's supposed to work...

Now, when a player straps on an enchantment that in reality makes him invulnerable, enters a party and proceeds to go on a killing spree, then the game becomes devoid of difficulty. Not just for himself, but for everyone else in that party as well. Varying power levels work great in single player, where what you do (or rather, what you can potentially do) has no effect on anyone else. But not so in a multiplayer environment, where players interact. This is exactly the same reason why you won't find any "power items" in Guild Wars - because people using them would wreck the fun for those who actually appreciate a challenge instead of an autowin.

If a game with no difficulty is what you're looking for, why not simply claim victory in advance and not play at all?

ManaCraft

banishd · Aug 22, 2005, 10:56 AM // 10:56

stop crying, read the 4th one.

there ya go

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 22, 2005, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

That's like saying cheats should be banned in single-player games since they make the game too easy and broken

Doesnt matter if you mean you and me specificially or not. I do find it interesting though, that you would associate the 105 with cheating... very telling.

Pure and simple the build is an exploit, which is as good as cheating, the only thing is, this isnt a single player game even if you have found an exploit that allows you to be profitable without others. So thats where your analogy fails.

You say I havent proven that the skill is broken, comments like that are a waste of time, because while thats true, its also true that you haven't proven that it is not broken and currently being exploited. Hell rather than that, you take the tack that since youre playing the as much like a one player game as you possibly can then cheating should be allowed.... Interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by red locust

If it was indeed broken, you'd be seeing every team running multiple copies of it, like they currently do with healing seed. Currently, you don't see that.

lol ok, so something can only be broken if its being used by teams?? You're right though we dont see teams using the exploit set up because its worthless to a team. What we DO see though is an infestation of monkroaches all of whom are wearing 5 sup runes (one of which is a dup) and switching off between 2 noob offhand items.... Ok so if you see teams of players loading up on a certain build/item/skill thats broken... but all the monkroaches (who could make up how many groups all told if they were forced to group for a census???) doesnt indicate something broken. Nice bias you have there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by banishd

stop crying, read the 4th one.

there ya go

Yea, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Charcoal Ann · Aug 22, 2005, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

If you are unsuccessfully soloing as any class type/matchup other than monk, I seriously question your ability to play the game well. My very first character was a ranger mesmer, and she soloed fine up to Lion's Arch without any help or input from whiners, bitchers, griefers, scammer,gangsta's, or internet tough guys.

i think his point was why should monks be the only class that can solo the undeworld? when nobody else can (you will notice that he said why should monks farm WHERE no-one else can) not that its impossible for anyone to solo anywhere at all.

i look at this thread and very few valid arguments are formed
the number of ad hominem fallacies in this thread is astronomical.

in an argument you cannot attack the opponent to disprove their point. you should only attack the argument itself. this is the reason that previous convictions of a criminal are not revealed to the jury, it is called poisoning the water and does nothing for your argument, merely trying to weaken the others position.

now then.
you say that these 105 and 55 farmer monks are helping the economy? (because of the massive influx of items)
i disagree because from my own experiences i have seen no drop in prices of anything (all price drops can be accredited to the merchant reset)
'godly' weapons are still selling for huge amounts of money.
due to this evidence i would say that the farmers are not aiding the economy. sure they are providing rare items for people but none are lowering their prices as a result. and the weapons that cannot be farmed in the uw are still selling for a lot because of a large group of super rich people who buy the best possible items with the money that they farmed.

i will not address the ad hominem arguments (such as its because he did it and he doesn't want anyone else to) the OP should not address these posts at all and if possible they should be deleted. they do not allow readers to arrive at a fair conclusion because of their 'poisoning of the water'.
i suggest that those of you attacking the OP withdraw then if you want this te be a real debate.

SOT · Aug 22, 2005, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

i think his point was why should monks be the only class that can solo the undeworld? when nobody else can (you will notice that he said why should monks farm WHERE no-one else can) not that its impossible for anyone to solo anywhere at all.

I look at this thread and very few valid arguments are formed
the number of ad hominem fallacies in this thread is astronomical.

in an argument you cannot attack the opponent to disprove their point. you should only attack the argument itself.

The OP said that because a certain build of character can solo, that the character build in question is an exploit and should not be allowed. That is the debate. Not your term paper project on who is a what and why no one should respond to his insanity.

Since all other classes CAN (prove me wrong, I dare you) solo in UW if they know (once again, stronger emphasis) what the hell they are doing, his argument is invalid. End of sentence.

If you can't hack it, the best recourse is to attack it, is what I am gathering from the thread. My reaction is not alien. My reaction is common sense.

And how dare you tell us who can participate in a thread, when you said nothing that hasn't been said 9 ways from Sunday.

Fallacy indeed

Calimar · Aug 22, 2005, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Charcoal ann: well said.

Actually I'd say that solo-farming of any kind endangers economy because it increases the difference between the "haves" and the "havenots", meaning those who are "rich" buy the "godly" stuff at huge amounts of money where those who can't solo farm won't be able to. A guy in my guild just switched to 105/55 and is making huge amounts of money soloing the UW for ecto & shards. Easy money? yes. Balanced? Hardly. Correct? Nah. Solo-farming is a twist of the "rules" - or intended rules - of the game, which is by all means a teamplay game. So as a twist, if it's available to one class it should be available to all.... but I would not encourage that.

I *think* (haven't looked at the build yet) that including one or two casters in the first part of the UW would be enough to take off the solo-farming monks... but I might be wrong. I'm just reporting what I've been told, that casters are the bane of this build, without having a direct knowledge of it.

Yet, if it encourages a growing in the number of monks in the later parts of the game, I'll take it as a good thing.
I'm quite sure that - considering the huge prolification of such monks - the devs are not ignorant to the matter and will address it as they see fit. Considering the good work they did till now, I'm confident they'll take the right measures.

EDIT: SOT, try it with a mesmer. Or a necro? Haven't been down there long enough to say anything, but you would think that if there was a way to solo it with other classes, you'd see more UW soloing from other kind of class. Yet ALL the people I've heard are MONKS. Why? Things are two, either monks are a smarter lot than others, which is statistically HIGHLY unlikely, or no one else has tried it, which is even less likely, or you're mistaken. I'd cast my vote on the last option.

SOT · Aug 22, 2005, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calimar

EDIT: SOT, try it with a mesmer. Or a necro? Haven't been down there long enough to say anything, but you would think that if there was a way to solo it with other classes, you'd see more UW soloing from other kind of class. Yet ALL the people I've heard are MONKS. Why? Things are two, either monks are a smarter lot than others, which is statistically HIGHLY unlikely, or no one else has tried it, which is even less likely, or you're mistaken. I'd cast my vote on the last option.

The reason for your constant encounters of Monk this and Monk that in UW is that people talk about it in towns. In your own private instance, should you choose otherwise, unless you PICKUP a pug with them, you dont see it. Period. But that much is obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Mod's can we get Yuan's posts deleted? They are completely off topic, he even says as much. He still makes no effort what so ever to provide any support to his claim that prot bond is not broken, and has ignored a request of mine to take further insults and or replys that are not regarding prot bond to PM. I suppose he feels he had to have the last word telling me to take it to PM.. Please before this thread gets any further off topic, Some Moderation. Feel free to also delete any of my responses to him, as its not like he's argued merits of prot bond so I realize my responses to him are off topic as well.

Thanks!

LMAO, first me, now he moved on to Yuan. I wonder who is next to be found in the shadow conspiracy to ruin the flamebaiter's life?

His entire OP was nothing more than an attempt to incite passions and fan flames. He got what he wanted,and Anwiel stepped in and cleaned up some posts, but the madness has spread like polio, more mundanity has entered, and new visions from new mouthfuls of asshat have invaded.

Dump this pos

Weezer_Blue · Aug 22, 2005, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Protective Bond is NOT broken. It does exactly what it says it does. None of the skills used in the 105 or 55 builds are broken. Nor are the runes. It is just a clever way to use them. What may or may not be broken is the areas which have no enchantment removal whatsoever. However, if you give every place enchantment removal to stop this build, then how are all these people that think Thunderhead is hard going to beat the game?

Charcoal Ann · Aug 22, 2005, 01:33 PM // 13:33

sure SOT all classes can solo the underworld, all classes can take the 200 dmg per hit that the Aatxes can dish out. maybe they can. i have seen no evidence at all to suggest that this is true.
i have seen videos of a ranger soloing the first group of Aatxes. oh good but not really worth it when the chances of getting a good drop from these 6 is almost astronomical.
you will say so what they are soloing them aren't they?
and i'll say that this thread is about solo farming . and soloing the first 6 Aatxes will not get you any money at all. (the purpose of farming).

you say that your view is not alien?
no apparently not however i have seen only one or two of your brother posters actually back their argument up with any evidence. without evidence an argument does not exist is is merely an unsubstantiated claim.

i am not telling you who can and cannot participate i am telling everyone that those who do not substantiate thier claim are not actually participating anyway. they are forming a bachground noise that detracts from the real emphasis of this thread.

Ad Hominem is a fallacy, this means that attacking the OP personally is not a valid form of argument anywhere. 'replies like ur a n00b' that i have seen on this thread exemplify this. does it add any substance to the argument? no.
therefor should it be included in the reasoning of the argument? no.
and because this thread is devoted to the reasoned argument on protective bond monk build should these be included?
no.

these people may as well say that they rather enjoy blinking... it contributes just as much to their argument as their origional posts.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 22, 2005, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Well, I know that three rangers can easily solo quite a bit of the underworld... and it went a hell of a lot faster than the 105 build by itself. I think if people looked at all the factor's involved, you'd realize that 105 builds are not godly for farming. Yeah, it's hard to die. But it takes a long time. You could probably do the same thing 3 times with 3 people by the time a single 105 is through.

SOT · Aug 22, 2005, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

sure SOT all classes can solo the underworld, all classes can take the 200 dmg per hit that the Aatxes can dish out. maybe they can. i have seen no evidence at all to suggest that this is true.
i have seen videos of a ranger soloing the first group of Aatxes. oh good but not really worth it when the chances of getting a good drop from these 6 is almost astronomical.
you will say so what they are soloing them aren't they?
and i'll say that this thread is about solo farming . and soloing the first 6 Aatxes will not get you any money at all. (the purpose of farming).

you say that your view is not alien?
no apparently not however i have seen only one or two of your brother posters actually back their argument up with any evidence. without evidence an argument does not exist is is merely an unsubstantiated claim.

i am not telling you who can and cannot participate i am telling everyone that those who do not substantiate thier claim are not actually participating anyway. they are forming a bachground noise that detracts from the real emphasis of this thread.

Ad Hominem is a fallacy, this means that attacking the OP personally is not a valid form of argument anywhere. 'replies like ur a n00b' that i have seen on this thread exemplify this. does it add any substance to the argument? no.
therefor should it be included in the reasoning of the argument? no.
and because this thread is devoted to the reasoned argument on protective bond monk build should these be included?
no.

these people may as well say that they rather enjoy blinking... it contributes just as much to their argument as their origional posts.

You're still grandstanding with collegiate terms in a fencing match dealing with pure semantics. Semantics do not refute an argument, they stave off admiting defeat of one.

So because I have not posted a 45 minute myopic documentary in Widnows Media Format, showing that it CAN be done, as it IS done on a regular basis by players across the spectrum of the gameworld, it isn't true. Because you haven't seen it, it cannot be done. Ok, gotcha. And this differs what you claim I personally claim...how? Oh wait, it doesn't.

And no, he offered no evidence that his claim of it (the issue and skill within it) being 'broken'. He stated it is broken 90 times, and type more and more insanely and emotionally, but no, he offered no literal proof that when I click on the skill, nothing happens. That would be defining it as broken, not his dislike of it.

So try again. I am atingle in thrilling anticipation at the next sociology lecture, since the thread as a whole is meaningless anyhow, this is more interesting.

Charcoal Ann · Aug 22, 2005, 01:39 PM // 13:39

umm hang on... doesn't solo mean on your own?
and isn't a 3 man team something different from solo?
why yes it is!
and 3 times as fast? sorry i don't think that can be true. that is just dreaming up stats on the spur of the moment to support your argument. also a fallacy

(don't worry 93% of people do it at some point in their life

)

and to SOT. i'm not refuting the argument. i am telling you that the argument is not an argument .

also if you provide no evidence for a conclusion it is not a conclusion. so the fact that you say you can't be bothered doesn't validate your argument.

personally i don't like the term broken as it does indeed suggest what you say. however in the gaming dialect it is something that does not work as it should in a fair world .

also this is not sociology, it is philosophy

.

SOT · Aug 22, 2005, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

umm hang on... doesn't solo mean on your own?
and isn't a 3 man team something different from solo?
why yes it is!
and 3 times as fast? sorry i don't think that can be true. that is just dreaming up stats on the spur of the moment to support your argument. also a fallacy

(don't worry 93% of people do it at some point in their life

)

Please link me to your text book supplier, I am enthralled.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 22, 2005, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Until you've tried it, then you can't call my claim a fallacy. Me and 2 rangers from my guild decided to go down there and polished off the aatxes shortly and them moved onto the easier parts. Alright... maybe not 3x as fast... but it's still a lot faster.

In any case, what does it matter if it's solo or not? If you can do it fast enough, you would theoretically get the same amount of drops.

Charcoal Ann · Aug 22, 2005, 01:47 PM // 13:47

if you are not doing it 3 times as fast are you doing it at the same productivity (per person) as the monk? no.
hence the monk is even more productive then a well oiled team of 3 working at maximum effectiveness.

to SOT the info on fallacies i am using can be found on the internet.

SOT · Aug 22, 2005, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

to SOT the info on fallacies i am using can be found on the internet.

I KNEW you were going to say that. I have seen enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Until you've tried it, then you can't call my claim a fallacy. Me and 2 rangers from my guild decided to go down there and polished off the aatxes shortly and them moved onto the easier parts. Alright... maybe not 3x as fast... but it's still a lot faster.

In any case, what does it matter if it's solo or not? If you can do it fast enough, you would theoretically get the same amount of drops.

But you see weezer, that is the OP problem first hand. He was (is I am sure) upset because you and your buddies were intelligent enough to figure that shit out for yourselves, and he would rather spend his time screaming about how unfair the universe is, rather than innovate his strategy and avoid the noid (so to speak).

As for the other claptrap in here, its not contributing to the thread, and yet that same claptrap claims no one else is either. I truly marvel and wonder at what that means.